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> Alternator Belt Drive Configuration
yayou
post Apr 24 2007, 05:06 PM
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I did some research to determine the root cause of my alternator failures this winter. To recap, I have had to replace 2 alternators this winter -- at around 3,000 miles interval each. Each time I had an alternator failure was after an extended (20 miles+) run at an average engine rpm of 7,200 - 7,500.

The alternator on the FST is a Bosch model 0 124 120 009 rated at 55amp. It is a GCM1 model which is a high performance, lightweight and splashproof design. It uses a 5PK-687 serpentine belt attached to a 6'' O.D. pulley on the engine and a 2.5'' O.D pulley on the alternator itself. The cut in rpm is 3,000 and the maximum continuous rpm is 18,000.

My conclusion is that the alternator is spinning too fast with the current pulley setup which is typical of an automotive application. Since the Weber engine spins twice as fast as an automotive engine, the alternator often operates at an rpm range that exceeds its maximum velocity rating -- significantly reducing its life cyle.

Simple math: 7,500 continuous engine rpm = 7,500 X 6 / 2.5 = 18,000 alternator rpm (where 6 and 2.5 = pulley diameters). As you can see, if you are running at high RPM for any length of time, the alternator is pushed beyond its basic operating parameters. At 8,000 rpm (wot) the alternator spins: 8,000 X 6 / 2.5 = 19,200rpm -- this is wrong based on the alternator specifications from Bosch.

What will I do? I will simply substitute the 2.5'' pulley diameter for a larger 3'' pulley. In that case, I will reduce the alternator rpm to levels within the design specification. At 8,000 engine rpm, the alternator will now be spining 16,000rpm. The 3000 cut in rpm at idle will be met: engine idle rpm = 1,800 X 6 / 3 = 3,600 alternator RPM.

My $.02 on this one.

This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Jan 23 2013, 07:04 PM


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Zornigvw
post Apr 24 2007, 06:32 PM
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Damn good info. Now to locate some pulleys. Ive had a failure also but at 900miles


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yayou
post Apr 24 2007, 09:59 PM
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Have a look at www.jonesracingproducts.com


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ExcursionPSD
post Apr 25 2007, 01:49 PM
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Linked in FAQ
This will be a Merged post for Current info regarding problems and solutions for the FST Alternator & Belt Drive.

I will try to quote and give credit to information copied into this post. Very little of it is from me.

==OVERVIEW
QUOTE(Snobeeler @ Feb 17 2012, 11:10 AM) *
The main problem is too high alternator RPM's as everyone knows. Tuning your clutching to achieve the recomended 8,200 engine rpm's makes the alternator spin even faster.

It is not expensive to do. Takes no more than 1 hour to complete. Do you run high rpm's for long periods (30 seconds or more). If you ride in remote areas or go on long trips I would do it. If you ride mostly local its a coin toss.


==PRODUCTS FOR IMPROVEMENT/REPAIR
===rzimmer PULLEY & BELT KIT

PayPal to ross.zimmermann@federalmogul.com

as of Feb. 7, 2012
................................ Item . US __ Canada
................................ Cost ===Shipping===
Underdrive Pulley and Belt Kit $46.00 $6.00 _ $17.00
Pivot bolt for '06 Models ..... $3.00 _____ *
SS Belt deflector ............. $6.00 $3.00 * _$5.00
SS Belt deflector w/Cut Clamp . $9.00 $6.00 * $17.00
. (Hose clamp cut to length)

* No shipping cost if shipped with pulley kit
Two Underdrive Pulley kits can be shipped together for the same shipping cost.


PayPal to ross.zimmermann@federalmogul.com



QUOTE(rzimmer @ Nov 22 2011, 07:15 AM) *
Three FST's I've looked at with the alternator belt looser than stock have been rubbing on the water pump housing.
The first run of the belt guides was done last night. They are made of stainless steel which will not rust, causing excess wear on the belt. There are two shown in the photo so you can see both top and bottom view. An additional hose clamp is required to fasten the guide to the water pump housing.

... If you're interested, PayPal to ross.zimmermann@federalmogul.com

[attachment=4300:FST_Belt_Guide.JPG]
___ Prototype guide Installed

[attachment=4301:HPIM0874.JPG]
___ #28 SS Hose Clamp Cut to Length
___ back of guide, ___ front of guide


Picture of the belt deflector

QUOTE(rzimmer @ May 6 2011, 05:09 AM) *
More Pulley info. No one has been able to come up with an oversize bolt-on alternator pulley for the FST. The ASE pulley is a 6 groove and requires machining. Other pulleys including Jones Racing also require machining and /or spacers.

I did some measuring and testing myself in addition to Yayou's excellent work. I measured the Pitch Diameter (PD), which is the effective diameter of the pulleys. The big pulley PD is close to 5.125" (130MM), the stock alternator pulley PD is 2.375" (60MM). That results in a ratio of 2.16:1.

I tested three alternators and they all put out over 45 Amps at 2,600 RPM alternator speed.

I have designed a bolt-on alternator pulley with a PD of 2.800" (71MM) which will change the ratio to 1.85:1.
At an idle speed of 1,500 engine RPM, the alternator will spin at 2,775 RPM, plenty of speed to charge the sled, while at 8,500 engine RPM the alternator speed will be 15,725 RPM.

I am having the design quoted by several pulley manufacturers and will see what comes of it. The issue I'm told is that a minimum order quantity is 50 or 100 pulleys in order to get a reasonable price. I'm thinking of putting together a "kit" which includes the pulley, the correct premium quality belt and an optional replacement pivot bolt for the '06 owners for under $50.00. Is there any interest out there?



FST ALTERNATOR PULLEY Speed Chart

The crankshaft pulley Pitch Diameter(PD) is 5.125"(130mm)

-Alt.- ---Pitch--- Drive
Pulley -Diameter - Ratio- 1,550 - _8,500 <-Engine RPM
Stock 2.375"(60mm) 2.16:1 3,348 - 18,360 <-Stock Alt. RPM
rzMod 2.800"(71mm) 1.85:1 2,867 - 15,725 <-rzMod Alt. RPM
-------------------------
Bosch makes this 0 124 120 009 alternator,
-it's max. continuous speed is @18,000 RPM
max. amperage is 55 amps output @8,000 RPM & up
-- testing shows 45 amps output @2,600 RPM
-------------------------


QUOTE(rzimmer @ Feb 21 2012, 06:42 AM) *
The kits come with a Dayco Poly - Rib 5050280 which puts the alternator in the original postion with the oversize pulley. A shorter belt will reduce the clearance with the water pump housing. No matter what pulley you run (even the stock pulley), if you're going to run the belt looser than Polaris recommendation, something should be in place to keep the belt from rubbing the housing. I have about 45 pulley kits left.


QUOTE(rzimmer @ Oct 3 2011, 02:44 PM) *
Hey guys, I was just approached by someone wanting to lighten the new oversize pulley from the" kit". Please don't remachine this pulley. It is designed to withstand the speeds as it is. Removing material will weaken the pulley and could adversly affect balance.

The new pulley is made of a specialized cast iron (designed for pulleys) to give the belt more traction so it will work well with less tension and not slip. The rotational interia of the pulley and alternator as a system is already reduced from stock due to it's lower speed.


QUOTE(yayou @ Sep 13 2011, 02:36 PM) *
A larger pulley will position the belt closer to the bottom of the plastic water pump housing. Given the rotation side of the engine, it is always the lower side of the belt that stays tight because of the opposing force created by the alternator. The upper side of the belt always runs looser because it is opposite to the traction side. Whenever the belt is adjusted loose, the upper side of the belt can rub against the lower portion of the water pump housing. Consistent rubbing wears the plastic housing very quickly and eventually creates a coolant leak leading to engine overheat.

The fix is to ensure you install a small metal guard underneath the plastic water pump housing. It can be as simple as a small piece of stainless sheet wrapped around the water pump housing. With this type of protection, the belt rubs against a material that will not wear out. Another method (although more complex and advanced) is to build a small bracket holding a small size ball bearing that will limit the upper movement of the belt when it gets loose. The easy fix is of course to maintain proper belt tension to avoid rubbing against the water pump housing, but proper tension does not eliminate the risk unfortunately. Over tightening the belt will eliminate the possibility of rubbing.... but at the expense of increased alternator bearing wear.... so back to square one with failed bearings if the belt is adjusted too tight.

Hope this helps.



=== BEARING
QUOTE(rzimmer @ Oct 5 2012, 06:41 AM) *
The NTN 6203 C-3 is an excellent choice for a bearing, but there is no good reason this alternator should spin that fast except Polaris needed a small pulley to get everything to fit easliy. wink.gif


QUOTE(ExcursionPSD @ Aug 31 2009, 02:59 AM) *
Here is one source for high quality alternator bearings: NTN 6203 LLB C3 bearing This is a 17mm ID x 40mm OD x 12mm Wide ball bearing, Double Sealed, made in Canada. $10US


==REBUILT or NEW ALTERNATORS

The Polaris Turbo/FST/FS uses a Bosch 0 124 120 009 Alternator. Rebuilders often identify it by an industry id: KARAM# 12721. Here is a source of New/Rebuilt alternators: AlternatorStarter.com FST Alternator. They ship from Canada and the United States.

J & N Electric is a Distributor of alternators and service parts to the Rebuilder industry. They are located in Cincinnati, Ohio.


==REMOVAL

Removal of MY06 or MY07up Alternator Pivot Bolt

QUOTE(booster @ Feb 14 2011, 12:23 PM) *
I had my MY07 FST IQ 121 alternator fail this weekend. It had the nut for the alternator pivot on the MAG side. I read about guys having problems removing the alternator, but I got mine out very easy actually:
  1. Removed the ground cable from the negative battery post. There will be NO battery power thruout the sled.
  2. Removed the exhaust pipe elbow (exhaust spring tool)
  3. Removed alternator heat shield (2 self-tapping cap screws, 3/8" head)
  4. Removed the white alternator field cold activation connector from alternator, press down on clip on top edge of connector.
  5. Removed Red wire with eyelet from output stud on alternator, 10mm squeeze-lok nut.
  6. removed the tensioner bolt, large washer that goes into alternator. 6mm socket head 15 ft.lb. on assembly
  7. loosened & pivoted the tensioner bracket up as far as it would go. 6mm socket head, small washer 15 ft. lb. on assembly
  8. Removed the belt from the alternator pulley
  9. Put needlenose vicegrips on the lower mounting bolt socket head since it is hard to get a 6mm allen key in there. A short 6mm bit on a long handled ratchet can reach the socket head of the bolt.
  10. then I removed the 13mm nut from the other side of pivot bolt with a ratchet. 15 ft.lb. on assembly
  11. then slid the bolt out by pushing the hoses to one side. got it almost all the way out then used Long needle nose pliers to pull it out the rest of the way.
  12. then wiggled the alternator free. Skinned one knuckle and took me a half hour easy labour.
hope this helps smile.gif "sorry for spelling mistakes"



==REPAIR
===ALTERNATOR PARTS LAYOUT
QUOTE(ru4real @ Oct 4 2012, 10:53 PM) *
I took my alternator apart tonight. I thought it sounded rough through a screw driver handle at the end of last season. Nothing wrong with this one though. Both bearings had plenty of grease in them. Plenty of brush left as well. Sled has 7,100 miles.

To reassemble, I put the bearing in the freezer and heated the aluminum end bell to about 150 deg F. Dropped right in. Below is a picture. The bearing that failed others is in the aluminum end bell in upper left of photo.


===BEARING REPLACEMENT
QUOTE(rzimmer @ Aug 30 2011, 02:28 PM) *
Replacement of the rear bearing requires desoldering the slip ring. It's not that simple, but the local shop here does it routinely. If it now sounds smooth, you're most likely OK. The front bearing is the one that receives more stress.

===HEAT SHIELD MODIFICATION

Heat Shield Insulation

==INSTALLATION

======================
== PERSONAL WATERCRAFT FLYWHEEL SYSTEM

QUOTE(yayou @ Sep 18 2011, 05:51 PM) *
Look Ma.... no more alternator... using a Weber marine magneto setup, saving weight (approx. 10lbs), freeing up a lot of space and maintenance free. Cool setup just completed for a customer.

[attachment=4206:FST.jpg]


The PWC style flywheel alternator has a max. continuous rating of 28 amps. The belt-driven FST alternator has a max. continuous rating of 55 amps.


QUOTE(yayou @ Sep 19 2011, 02:49 PM) *
That's the problem... it is expensive! So much that I do not bother trying to commercialize this setup.

However, with patience and time, one can assemble the required components from ebay using the Polaris MSX150 original parts....

There is only minor machining work to do to fit the rotor on the snowmobile crankshaft (different from the marine crankshaft)... that I can take care of as I have all the jigs and measurements and it's a relatively inexpensive job (around $60).

If you are going with new parts, you are looking at over $1,200......
If you are looking at used parts, then it can be done for less than $500.


This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Mar 29 2013, 07:51 PM


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FST
post Apr 26 2007, 12:27 AM
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Interesting...

Mine also failed, but at higher mile than yours.

ExcursionPSD,

Mine failed and brackets never did. When dealer changed mine the backets were all solid.

FST

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fixjet
post Apr 26 2007, 06:46 AM
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My brothers failed at about 4500 miles. We stopped for a break at one of our favorite places and when we came out his made a whining sound. He didn't really hear it until I mentioned it, but you could definately here it. We could not tell where the sound was coming from except it was on the right side of the engine. The alternator was the best outcome because we thought it might have been a engine bearing. Dealer found the alternator bearing bad and replaced it. Has anyone found a place to purchase the alternator other than from Polaris. $375.00 ohmy.gif The other option would be to replace the bearings if they are available.


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NEK121328
post Apr 26 2007, 07:16 AM
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Can anyone provide the alternator bearing number and brand directly from the bearing or the specifications? Not the Polaris part number. Thanks
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farmerold
post Apr 26 2007, 07:21 AM
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I had a bearing in the alternator go also, just past 5,000 mi. The day it went we had been breaking trail and it was running near WOT most of the time but not going very fast, also when we removed the alternator, the belt tension seemed to be very tight. Could this also have an effect on the bearing life?

The belt couldn't be twisted 90 degrees like it states in service manual which I think was too tight.

This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Dec 24 2012, 02:50 AM


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Zornigvw
post Apr 26 2007, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE(farmerold @ Apr 26 2007, 09:21 AM) *
I had a bearing in the alternator go also, just past 5,000 mi. The day it went we had been breaking trail and it was running near WOT most of the time but not going very fast, also when we removed the alternator, the belt tension seemed to be very tight. Could this also have an effect on the bearing life?

The belt couldn't be twisted 90 degrees like it states in service manual which I think was too tight.


A belt being too tight will also make the bearings whine. That's the bearings way of saying "stop pullling on me!" tongue.gif

This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Dec 24 2012, 02:48 AM


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smokeless1
post Apr 26 2007, 06:27 PM
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Yayou, great bit of research. Since you appear to have access to specs, why does the alternator need to spin at anywhere near 18,000 rpm. Would seem to me that since the alternator is about double what stators put out on 2 stroke sleds that perhaps slowing the thing down by 1/3 would put out plenty of juice to take care of anything the sled would require to keep the battery up and all accessories. In other words why run at the max when that is clearing going to be a alternator life killer?

I assume you will be changing the pulley, and when you do, if you could post the part numbers for the Bosch unit many of us would appreciate it.

This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Dec 24 2012, 02:16 AM


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yayou
post Apr 27 2007, 01:39 AM
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According to Bosch specifications, alternator speed above 8,000 will provide the required velocity to generate almost full rated amps.

Slowing down by 1/3 would be too much and would not allow to reach cut in velocity which is set at 3,000 alternator rpm. This means that after startup, the alternator needs to spin (or reach) a minimum of 3,000rpm in order to start charging the battery.

Current setup at idle is: 1,800 engine rpm X 6 / 2.5 = 4,320 alternator rpm.................... if you slow down by 4,320rpm by 1/3, you get 2,880rpm which is below the cut in rpm. That would not work.


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Zornigvw
post Apr 27 2007, 11:46 AM
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so if we make the alternator pully 3.5" the idle RPM of the the alternator will be ~3085
or 3323 for a 3.25" pully.

once again great research.

BTW Im waiting on the intercooler to come in.

This post has been edited by Zornigvw: Apr 27 2007, 11:46 AM


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ExcursionPSD
post Apr 27 2007, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE(fixjet @ Apr 26 2007, 07:46 AM) *
My brothers failed at about 4500 miles. We stopped for a break at one of our favorite places and when we came out his made a whining sound. He didn't really hear it until I mentioned it, but you could definately here it. We could not tell where the sound was coming from except it was on the right side of the engine. The alternator was the best outcome because we thought it might have been a engine bearing. Dealer found the alternator bearing bad and replaced it. Has anyone found a place to purchase the alternator other than from Polaris. $375.00 ohmy.gif The other option would be to replace the bearings if they are available.


You might try taking it to an alternator rebuilding place, and see if they can replace the failed bearing.

The alternator (labeled generator in the diagram) is part# 045 2966 $373US
No alternator components are available separately from Polaris


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07 FST IQ Cruiser. 15,710 miles SLP Powder Pros, 10" carbide, Fox Float IFS, MY09 LW spindle, skidplate, Racecraft intercooler & boost box, ELA Gen II exhaust, Precision Sports 2012 reflash & HD eng. mounts, full SLP intake, heat control and venting package, 136 x 1.25 RipSaw full clipped w/144 plastic doubled XL Fast-Trac 1.375 studs, Avid-Products.com external drivers on axle, revalved M10 Fox shocks, 4 inner and 2 outer idlers added, Receiver hitch & projector beam installed. rzimmer underdrive alt. pulley. AMSOIL fluids by MAXoil.com

10 600 CFI LX INTL Red Powder Pro skis, red skidplate, 108 double XL Fast-Trac 1.375, 4 rear idlers, receiver hitch

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yayou
post May 2 2007, 04:42 PM
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My project is now completed.

I bought a used 3'' alternator pulley at a local alternator repair shop that is a perfect fit........ it originally came from a Nippo-Denso alternator and I paid $10 (!). I had to change the belt for a longer one -- needed 28.25'' and it is Carquest part #K050275........... (OEM is 27'' or 687mm).

One more thing........ I did not mention in my original post that the plastic cover on my defective alternator had started to melt. The aluminum heat shield obviously transmits too much heat from the manifold/turbo above. I have isolated the original shield with a thin layer of fiberglass/ceramic fabric doubled by a riveted thin sheet of aluminum....... pictures to come if any of you have an interest.

This post has been edited by yayou: May 2 2007, 04:42 PM


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GRIZZ88
post May 2 2007, 10:09 PM
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yayou
I wrapped my exhaust with header wrap and it helped alot with under hood heat.


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Zornigvw
post May 3 2007, 02:12 AM
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Do you have a part number for the pully/altinator or know what car it came off of?

Great work again!!Thanks!!!

This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Dec 24 2012, 02:13 AM


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camoplast cobra track, 216 trigger studs, 9" avid plastic wheels with avid products offset axel, SLP Powder Pros w/9" carbides, Precision Sports programing and clutching w/ 24/44 gearing,racecraft-fabrication tubular exhaust manifold,precision turbo HP4828, avid products extrovert drivers, slp anti stab kit, hygear suspension revalve and resprung, Fox floats with hygear suspension resivors. Racecraft-fabrication muffler and intercooler. carbon fiber handgards, Twisted Engineering carbon fiber handle bars. Racecraft-Fabrication aluminum boost box, turbosmart eboost2 boost controller, 2step launch control.

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yayou
post May 4 2007, 01:07 PM
Post #17


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QUOTE(Zornigvw @ May 3 2007, 04:12 AM) *
Do you have a part number for the pully/altinator or know what car it came off of?

Great work again!!Thanks!!!


I don't know what application it came from.... other than what type of alternator it was originally mounted on. If you want, I can get another one and ship it to you.... $15usd shipping included...... let me know if I can help.


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Zornigvw
post May 4 2007, 08:48 PM
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you have a message biggrin.gif


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My Photo Album

2007 fst
camoplast cobra track, 216 trigger studs, 9" avid plastic wheels with avid products offset axel, SLP Powder Pros w/9" carbides, Precision Sports programing and clutching w/ 24/44 gearing,racecraft-fabrication tubular exhaust manifold,precision turbo HP4828, avid products extrovert drivers, slp anti stab kit, hygear suspension revalve and resprung, Fox floats with hygear suspension resivors. Racecraft-fabrication muffler and intercooler. carbon fiber handgards, Twisted Engineering carbon fiber handle bars. Racecraft-Fabrication aluminum boost box, turbosmart eboost2 boost controller, 2step launch control.

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Snobeeler
post Jan 13 2008, 12:27 PM
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My alternator is singing the blues also now. 5,600 miles. Bad bearing. I also found the small red wire broken at the white plug on alternator. Can someone look at theirs and tell me if that wire goes into the top or bottom slot in the plug. Picture of mine is below.

Attached Image


I decided to remove the alternator myself and am glad someone had suggested drilling a hole to remove the mounting bolt. As you can see below I missed a bit on first hole and drilled a second. I left the bolt there so you can see exacly where to drill the hole. To get at the bracket mount bolt, remove the airbox and use a long extension under the y pipe. Also, I assume my alternator was putting out full charge all the while that wire was broken.

Attached Image

Silver head of socket head mounting bolt is shown in center of picture.

This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Nov 24 2010, 02:10 AM


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2014 800 Switchback Pro R Adventure..........1650 Miles, Rerouted VES Solenoid Outlet (sound familiar), StudBoy Duece Runners, Heavy Rear Track Spring.
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Zornigvw
post Jan 13 2008, 12:47 PM
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What I did was cut the bolt in half to remove it.

Then bought a new bolt and put it in from the opposite side therefor no hole in the pan.

This post has been edited by ExcursionPSD: Sep 3 2010, 10:18 PM


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My Photo Album

2007 fst
camoplast cobra track, 216 trigger studs, 9" avid plastic wheels with avid products offset axel, SLP Powder Pros w/9" carbides, Precision Sports programing and clutching w/ 24/44 gearing,racecraft-fabrication tubular exhaust manifold,precision turbo HP4828, avid products extrovert drivers, slp anti stab kit, hygear suspension revalve and resprung, Fox floats with hygear suspension resivors. Racecraft-fabrication muffler and intercooler. carbon fiber handgards, Twisted Engineering carbon fiber handle bars. Racecraft-Fabrication aluminum boost box, turbosmart eboost2 boost controller, 2step launch control.

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